Fish Finder Recommendations Wanted

[dgoff]

I just bought a new yak, so I could give mine to my very happy and surprised son. I let him have all the goodies, now I'm busy gathering new stuff. I was using the Eagle 250 S/Map combo sonar / gps and liked it very much. But now is the perfect time to upgrade and I'm wondering what everyone else is using and how you like it. So far I'm thinking color (is it worth the extra cost), single beam (freq) and included GPS. Please chime in.
Dennis

[Spike]

Whadidya get Dennis?  Does it paddle, peddle or fly?  More importantly, will it last 10 years in the sun?  I never saw a kayak promoted on these boards that didn't.

I'm feeling wordy this morning and figure the readers might get something from this quest for information...with a little editorial help from us.

I guess the second question is "Do you go portable or permanent?".

Since my first cheap portable sonar unit 15 years ago, I have long been a fan of PORTABLE sonar.  It can be moved from boat to boat, used for travel fishing and will require less service and repair in my experience.  I remember initiating the rescue at county line when Lou Dog recovered his buddy's sonar floating out to sea...in the nick of time.  In a dry box, it was in perfect condition.  A portable unit, packed into a dry box, can be moved around the deck to better accomodate different riggings like front trolling rods or landing a thresher.  Also, dedicated to mothershipping chores, I've noticed that the fancier the kayak, the more stuff breaks.  Sonar mounts, homemade rod holders and bait tank riggings are the first things to go.  So are mounted transducers so add a tube of GOOP to your repair kit.  And Crazy Glue (to stop bleeding).

Permanent mounted sonar?
Does the new kayak have ample, easy mounting space on the deck?, a nice spot for the power plant and doable wiring possibilities?, Is there stowage space for the surf and a dedicated dry bag or box so you get more than a few trips worth of submarine information before it fries?

I use a color screen with GPS, good to 600 feet and I like it a lot. I think I have a triple beqm transducer?  Not sure.  The unit came with one thru-hul and one external mount transducer.  All the popular fishing units are similar by price point and function.  If you are interested in saving money on your purchase, I'd consider the catalogue sales and last years models by the highest quality manufacturers.  Personally, I stay away from Humminbird.  Based on years of feedback, I think all the others come closer to the "bombproof" rating for kayak fishing.

Lastly, I don't use the term "fishfinder" for sonar because I feel if people use it to find fish, they will catch less.  That's another rant.
Please let us know what models you consider along the way.

[dgoff]

The one I gave my son was a Hobbie Outback, and I've loved it from the day I bought it. Consequently, my new one is a 2009 Outback. The company I bought it from had quoted me a very good price on a closeout 2008, but when we unwrapped it, we found it to be a 2009. As any good company should, they honored my original quote, so I'm a very happy customer.

I did spend a lot of time researching other boats, which has led me to an interesting site called 'kayakfishingstuff', but not the one most of us are familiar with, this one is on the west coast of Australia. An interesting sidenote; there is a Dennis there who also uses the nickname Menace, the nickname I finally gave up because I think it was looked at skeptically by internet people. Back to the boat search, when I first started this sport, I tried many traditional paddle yaks and really liked a few, but being the older man that I am, the peddles won over. The only other Hobie that interested me was the Revolution, but I'm really used to mine and all of the extra on-deck space. (old dog, new tricks, theory)

Back to the sonar/gps, I mounted my previous one permanently, with the head removable so I could store it on launch and recovery. I really don't need portable because I don't use other yaks at all and haven't started traveling to locations where I will need to rent one. I really really liked the built in gps. Your fish finder vs. 'sonar rant' may have actually struck a chord with me, I may be wanting something to help me locate fish when that's not a reasonable expectation. Please, fill me in on the reasons.

Lastly, since I'm feeling wordy also, my current choice is leaning towards the Lowrance M68c S/Map. It seems to be the color version of my previous Eagle Cuda 250, so the learning curve will be reduced a little. I was seriously considering a Hummingbird that they remanufacture and sell with a vhf marine radio (something my son needs) but after a little research it looks like the reason there are so many remanufactured ones is that they break a lot! I know my Eagle (Lowrance) was bullet proof, as it has spent a fair amount of time floating in the Pacific and still works like a charm. The surf launch routine took me awhile to catch on to. 

I'm holding off awhile on purchasing, to gather some more opinions, so all rants are welcomed.
The other Dennis

[Spike]

I use sonar as a structure locator, after consulting maps and charts of the targetred area, as opposed to a "fish finder".  The more I catch fish and relate what was on the screen, the better I'm able to identify what the information means. Sometimes, the density of the bottom structure is more important than anything within the water column.  I use the screen to learn the structure of my spots.  That could be a sandy flat.  Or better...mud. 

After reading the manuals and hitting up my friends for shortcuts and still not figuring it out fast, my first "sonar breakthrough" occurred during the great wsb bite of 2000.  Today, especially fishing the spots I know, the sonar is most important for checking simple depth and especially for making bait through the course of the day.
That Lowrance is a good one.

[JRD]

Dual beam definately.  I find that when my puck has not been properly mounted in the past I could get only one and it made a serious difference in locating mid - water column bait, fish and kelp layed down by the current.  Dual or triple beam are better for this area.

Color vs. Greyscale - If you can learn to read the color its definately the way to go for differntiating the type of bait, fish and even kepl and temp gradients.  While I agree with Spike about the depth and structure locator if you fish live bait its also important for locating and identifying bait and in certain locations where big fish are more available its nice to see where they are hanging out for depth.  And i can't say enough about being able to keep out of deep water kelp - I hate it!!!!!!

I have my personal preference developed over a much shorter period than Dennis about manufacturers and have only really had a problem when I did something stupid like let the head go for a swim or put it on the mount when there is water in the electrical connections. Use alot of dialectric grease and that solves most of the problems from wet connections.  You can't go wrong with the Lowrance though.  Hit up your local West Marine or other Marine store and certainly ask about the back room stock, older stock and get last year's unit at subtantial reductions.  My local WM used to keep a yellow sheet of old inventory that the manager had substantial discretion to get rid of.  Seemed my best deals always came after I agreed to purchase an extended warranty, maybe they get more from that then the unit themselves.  Either way it was a win for me.

I still have a DX200 portable that goes with me when i travel, but I prefer the permanent mount as well as long as you think throught the puck placement and wiring.  I like to mount my Sonar low, so I always had a problem with the Outback design and seeing through the pedal mechanism but there are alot of guys out there now who have come up with 100's of mounts for that model.  Just search around.

Anyway have fun, its my favorite part outfitting a new yak.

Randy

[dgoff]

Randy,
Thanks for the reply. I gather your personal favorite must be Hummingbird, even though not spoken outloud. What model do you like?

The dual beam (or triple) vs single beam is an interesting, but very confusing, discussion. Most of what I've read seems to conclude that single beam is better for relatively shallow waters and dual beam for much deeper waters. I've seen comments that most dual beam units comprimise on the higher frequencies and therefore don't read bottom detail as well (or maybe it's the other way around). I would like to get one of the major manufacturers to give honest comment instead of just sales hype.

Any techie types who are willing to comment on low vs high freq, single vs dual beam or even a link to a good description would be appreciated.

Dennis

[dgoff]

I'm going to correct myself before everyone else does.    I re-read some of the information I was referring to, and it seems that high frequencies are best at detecting fish, not the bottom structure. What it said is that dual beam units force the high freq into a much smaller cone so you can't see as much area below you. By my twisted thinking, I'm only concerned with what's pretty much directly below me, too wide of a cone seems like it would confuse where the fish really are. I'm probably over thinking this purchase. . . .   

[Spike]

I've put a l;ot of time into the same quest for info and from a laymans perspective, the quality of information is more intended for powerboat applications.  I don't think we can appreciate a difference between transducer beams in readability, that translates to fishability, within our small range.
Recognizing the overthinking process is the first step to more fishing.  Sonar assists your fishing and compliments your intuition and experience OTW.  It is not crucial or even necessary for some of the best fishermen.  But I'm a technology freak when it comes to kayak fishing whose boats range from the basic setup and a Plano Bucket to the full monty with livewell, sonar.gps and Shark Shield.

[dgoff]

For me, tricking out my yak is the second most enjoyable time spent off of the water.    I just have a need to know how something works.

I forgot to ask you, why is mud better and how can you tell on sonar?

[EFISH]

I love my Humminbird 595c.  used to have a humminbird 47 3D that was black and white and the color is much better.   The thing that I like the most about Humminbird is the incrediable service they give.  If you ever have any problems with them call the 800# and their there to help you.  Sent one unit in and had it back with in 2 weeks. Problems with the mother board so they changed it out for a new one.   Had problems with a cable that rusted out due to salt water.  Called 800 service they trouble shot my problem on the phone with me and for a fee, got a new cable in less then a week and was back on the water.   All kinds for sales out there now, check around.
Peace  Out
EFISH

[JRD]

Dennis,

Not really a preference, just I am cheap and the Matrix system which seemed to be one the earliest and least expensive integrated systms was an inexpensive alternative along with the extended warranty with WM its a deal, walk in and replace, then pay the additional $29 bucks for a new 2 year warranty so even if they fry out its easy and quick to replace for relatively cheap. Also Lou Dog and Dr. Gil were getting them and I felt I needed to keep up with the Jones!!!!!!   On my skiff, where its more protected and used more I have a Furuno mounted.  Its better quality than the Matrix but as i said i like the easy of replacement.  Having said that, I've had the Matrix on the kayak now for aobut 2.5 years and had zero problems with it.  I have however fried a large number of humminbird heads in the past and have a drawer full of fried DX200 heads.  

Thats on my kayak, and I liked the idea of having some feeling for structure coming up in order to alter my depth or style of fishing so the dual beam gives you a bigger cone of sight.  Its something Spike convinced me of in getting my first FF and it seems to work well.  

Also there are those occasional times when you feel like doing something completely out of the ordinary and the narrow beam is good for going deep.  I remember one occasion at the Ranch where we were very deep and there was supposed to be nothing below us, I noticed some marks near the bottom and dropped a bait down only to find that Humbolts on a kayak are a blast.  I seem to recall no many, if any, had targetted or caught the humbolts before that time and it turned into a blast with Hook, Spike, myself and I am thinking Desmond among others.  As the water gets shallower then its less important.  Just depends on where you do most of your fishing.

Anyway, unless the cost is greatly different, what is the downside to having a multiple beam transducer?  They are not normally bigger or draw more power and you dont seem to lose any quality wiht a two beam over a single.  Beside's I am sure we have all been the designated guy to answer the "what's the depth" or "whats underneath us" questions with friends or newbies.  Its always nice to be able to give them more than they asked for.

Anyway have fun with it, and if you need to power one of those monster units I think I have a few 20 amp batteries laying around you are free to take with you!!!!  That is one nice thing about the Matrix, I dont know about the others but for a single day of fishing I can power it of a 2.5 amp battery with the GPS going.

Randy

[JRD]

Dennis,

One thing I forgot to mention when reading your original post is that there are alot of posts in different web sites (power boaters) that go over this issue.  I also remember one by a guy named Jim Day who built a wooden yak and also turned a FnD into a real tank.  We had a write up about a year ago on his yak FF and included picts in his post showing it tracking his fish trap to the bottom in pretty deep water.  Without stepping on toes it was either on Allcoast or Bloody Decks site that it was on.  If you cant figure out which web sites they are give me a PM. 

Let us know how it went.

Randy

[dgoff]

I've already placed an on-line order for one. I decided that I would go with the Lowrance M68C. It's basically the color version of the Eagle Cuda 250 S/Map that I had on my previous yak. The various web sites rate it as very good in it's price range, and the learning curve will be very easy. Thanks for all of your information, I really appreciate it, and the recommendations of everyone else also.
Dennis

[Iceman]

I decided that I would go with the Lowrance M68C.

If you were happy with the 250 that would be a great upgrade.

[shasta]

I've gone through two humminbird piranhas (corrosion, not really waterproof), and am starting to look for something better.  The Lowrance M68C does look good.  Some of the garmins look good too, but it looks like you have to buy a separate transducer i for the Garmin models if you want to glue it to the inside of the hull, which I plan to continue doing.   
How does the standard Lowrance M68 transducer work from inside the hulll?